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Smart, talented immigrants have shaped the entrepreneurial spirit and vitality of Silicon Valley for decades. But lately, with economies growing in China, India and elsewhere while the local tech scene remains stagnant, skilled immigrants are returning to their home countries in search of better opportunities.
And recruiters like Jack Perkins, of Mountain View, are helping them get there.
“The word is that India is booming, and there are more product development opportunities there,” said Perkins, a principal at local boutique search firm Oryx.
These days, he said, Indian companies are on the lookout for “Silicon Valley DNA,” which helps give them a “global perspective to move beyond the India-centric marketplace.”
In the past, India was “really big on the services side, and back-office type of work and IT implementation and quality and testing,” he said. “But now there’s a critical mass of new product development for global (technology) products, taking place in India, and that requires a different type of engineer. So that’s the market I’m addressing.”
For example, Perkins is currently looking to fill a vice president of engineering position at a company in Mumbai: “They want the candidate to come from here because they need, as they put it, a real game changer,” he said.
The trend bothers some industry watchers, who say an exodus of highly qualified individuals could have serious implications for the economic health of Silicon Valley.
“We have a lot to worry about,” said Vivek Wadhwa, a researcher at Duke University and currently a visiting scholar at UC Berkeley.
“Now if you speak to anyone, meet any random Indian or Chinese, everybody knows somebody that has gone back home,” he said. “It’s a severe problem because we’re losing critical talent.”
Wadhwa’s research focuses on the effects of globalization on engineering, and specifically on highly skilled immigrant entrepreneurs. Over the next five years, he estimates, 100,000 Indian and Chinese immigrants working in technology and engineering will return to their home countries in search of better professional opportunities. He believes tens of thousands of them will be leaving Silicon Valley.
“More than half of the startups during the dot-com boom were from immigrants,” he said. “That’s a major blow to Silicon Valley’s vitality. There’s nothing good about this for Silicon Valley.”
In research conducted last year, Wadhwa’s team at Duke surveyed 1,203 Indians and Chinese who had returned to their home country after working or going to school in America. The survey yielded a 90 percent response rate.
They found that 68.7 percent of Indians and 84 percent of Chinese believed their home countries provided better career opportunities. Almost half of Indians, and over 60 percent of Chinese, said financial compensation was a factor in returning. (Perkins said he wouldn’t disclose for free the difference between typical salaries here and in South Asia.)
“It started with the economy,” Wadhwa said, “but it was happening anyway.”
Missing home
Even up-and-comers educated here seem to be following the larger drift.
“I’m thinking about sticking around for a couple of years, two or three but probably not more than that,” said Ayush Khanna, a graduate student in the School of Information at UC Berkeley, adding that he chose the Berkeley program specifically for its proximity to Silicon Valley.
“I would say the primary motivation for me to stay would be the fact that I’d like to experience working in Silicon Valley to see what that’s like,” he said. A second reason to stay, he said, would be to pay back his student loans.
Khanna said he was surprised, when he moved to the U.S. from Mumbai last August, to find that the job opportunities here were not so different from those back home. While it used to be that “so-called elite” jobs, like research and development, were only available in America, the emerging South Asian economy has opened up similar opportunities back home, he said.
Wadhwa noted that aside from seeking better professional opportunities, many immigrants miss their families, or have trouble adapting to American culture.
In his research, a majority of Indian respondents said the emotional growth of their children was better in India, and 42.5 percent believed their home countries provided better education for children. And a vast majority cited closeness to family and friends in their home country, as well as care for aging parents, as other considerations in leaving the U.S.
“I’d definitely be making much better money here compared to there,” Khanna said. “But the thing is there’s also the small fact that I am from there, and that I have friends and family there, and there’s not a huge difference in the quality of work that I get to do.”
‘People go willingly’
Perkins said the current brain drain will not cause the “death” of Silicon Valley, but described it as “one of the many headwinds” it faces.
“We can’t assume that people who come here on an H-1B visa will do anything and everything to stay when there are very attractive opportunities back in the home country,” he said.
Asked whether his work didn’t hurt America’s economy, Perkins replied, “The money I’m paid comes here, that’s a good thing.”
“I’m going with the flow,” he added. “I’m in the Indian export business, and people go willingly.”
Wadhwa agreed, describing the work of headhunters like Perkins as “a booming business right now because everyone wants to go. That’s the future, unfortunately.”
This is good. When these people go “home”, jobs will open up for American citizens. The sooner they leave, the better. If this is not your home, you are not an immigrant, you are a colonial. To put it bluntly, these people are human locusts.
How about we get smart talented US citizens to take their place, god knows you only have a pool of 300+ million to choose from!
Btw, If an US industry doesn’t mainly employ (95%) US citizens, then it has no value to the country. Let it die!
What has happened is that companies are filled with managers and workers that don’t care at all about the United States. Whatever happened to the immigrant who came here because he wanted freedom? Companies like Google, Cisco, Microsoft put an end to that. This was all about money, not the Constitution, freedom.
We need to emphasize these core values, we need people to come here because they want to be in the United States, not in some scab-job in the U.S.
If you have a passion for freedom and creativity, come to the United States, simple as that. If you want money, power, prowess…well these aren’t core U.S. values…you might find them elsewhere, Good Luck making Faustian bargaining.
What has always been really sickening about ALL of SV reporting, is the worship of ‘immigrant’s and the general disparagement of the citizens who BUILD THE INDUSTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE, who are tossed aside like day old bread after training their foreign replacement, and are then accused of being ‘uneducated’ as insult on top of injury
Frankly, it’s a level of sedition
I have seen quite a bit in my days and feel so many talented citizens in SV have been displaced due to the crazy rush to outsource and ‘off the chart’ issuance of H1-B visas in the last 10 years.
This is a good thing for those citizens looking for work in the Valley.
P.S. I have nothing against Indians or Chinese…just not a fan of locusts…as Old Ben referenced below.
We should reinstate the immigration quotas that we had from 1925 to 1965 until ACTUAL unemployment gets down to 5% or below.
I spent a year in Iraq in a combat zone and then nearly six months in Mumbai with a US-based telecommunications firm. Frankly, Iraq was much more livable and appealing and a decent place to live by comparison. So send them all back to the cesspool called India, and let’s put US citizens back to work.
Great!
This should have happened sooner. It’s pretty sad that local talent is being tossed aside and tagged as 2nd to those immigrants who were trained by these very individuals that have been in Silicon Valley all along.
Greed for money has created many problems…this just one of them.
Hoping to see better days again 🙂
Vivek Wadhwa and others have been predicting this brain drain for several years now. He has research show than many “intend” to return home. But they are not actually doing it. The number actually leaving the country is about the same as it has always been.
The normal rate of return is getting a lot of attention. What is happening is that every time the immigration mafia asks Congress to increase the number of H-1Bs and green cards and Congress fails to deliver they send out Mr. Wadhwa and friends to crank up the publicity machine to cry “brain drain.” Kelsey Mesher is the latest to be duped into going along with the deceit.
If it actually happened it would be a good thing for the country. Most of the entrepreneurial companies immigrants have brought to America we would be better off without. Too often what these companies have done is set up shop here to collect requirements and send the work to India to be done or bring in underpaid H-1Bs to do the work. Mr. Wadhwa himself built such a company. They do not add value to America but steal value from America.
More Americans will have jobs if this currently not happening brain drain really happens. Let us hope it does.
@Old Ben,
You were referring to immigration laws that let only Europeans to immigrate. That statement makes it clear who you are.
Rest of the naive folks,
Keep dreaming !
All those morons who think that these people are leaving vacant jobs when they leave make my head spin. As mentioned more than 50% of SV startups were by immigrants what makes you think that a dum dum with 3rd grade education can fill those positions.
These positions are going with these people. Bangalore will be the next SV and already so many US citizens lining up to apply for jobs there.
This is suicidal like killing the hen that lays the golden egg….
SV will be the next Detroit if the trend continues.
(to Old Ben) First you’d have to educate your own citizens to be smart and competent enough to fill those precious jobs – and that will be a major challenge considering the state of the education system in CA (and in the U.S. overall). ‘Human locusts’?! How dare you! That is beyond arrogant, nationalist/racist and just plain stupid. The Mexicans have been feeding you and cleaning your toilets for years, while the Indians,Russians, Germans and Chinese have been doing their hi-tech best so guys like you, old Ben, could be doing what you do best – ripping people off (banking, sales, real estate and the law).Enjoy it while you can. If all these locusts (people) leave, you’ll be in big trouble.
Describing this phenomenon a “brain drain” is a misnomer. The term should be applied to describe when a highly educated/trained citizen leaves their home country in search of better opportunities. Reporting that immigrants who come to Silicon Valley seeking education and experience in fact demonstrates our relevance and excellence. I would be worried if immigrants had no desire to come here in the first place, or if it were US-born and educated best and brightest that were leaving en masse to find better education and career opportunities elsewhere – that would constitute a “brain drain”. Lest we not forgot that we are dealing with the worst economy in most of our lifetimes – not at all surprising that foreign nationals with prospects in their home country would leave.
Politicians have turned against America. They refuse to see the people in this country on expired visas. They refuse to accept that we cannot afford to take care of those here illegally. They refuse to promote hiring Americans first. Victim of political correctness? Or, afraid of losing the vote to stay in office?
A friend was working for a company in a close city. His supervisor came in from another country when there were jobs “galore” His supervisor often spoke of his work visa coming to an end. In the meantime he literally let his entire department go, and replaced every last one of them with his friends from outside of the country.
Outsourcing customer service jobs Americans can do is one huge problem. Ever had to call AT&T for internet help? First stop is India. The person on the other side automatically goes to his ‘manual’ and makes assumptions we are ignorant by the questions and his demands you do as he says. It is not just AT&T; it seems to be the ‘norm’ big companies are using to save money. They save money as we lose money.
I am also a US Navy veteran. I am not saying I should get preference over other Americans, but American’s need jobs.
To OldBen and his like:
Your whining shows who you are. I am not a supporter of mass immigration like the ones we are seeing now in the last 10 years and the companies have exploited it a lot and given lot of the jobs away to Non-Americans. Corporations have a duty and loyalty to their country of establishment. America is successful because of its people.
We witnessed 65K H1-visas given away every year to non Americans and 20+% percentage of those visas are taken by Russians,Eastern Europeans. Obviously you have no problem with people of certain skin color coming here en masse.Your whining is based on skin color and look, Which I think is very unfair and immoral. But you and your likes obviously are very narrow minded bigots.
SV the next Detroit!?! Give me a break! Total hyperbole.
One mistake is believing that every one of the guest-workers are “best” or “brightest” when the data show that it’s only a tiny percentage who approach those levels. Let’s keep that top half of 1% and send the rest packing. Then we can bring the top 30% of US workers back to full employment with reasonable hours and working conditions.
In a way this is separate from the illegal immigration issue and in a way it is not, since the rise in guest-workers has resulted in some of them and their spouses becoming illegal aliens. Properly tracking visa grantees and properly defending the borders would also do a lot to bring back the economic health for farm, construction, restaurant, and meat-packing workers. Before 1965 and the Hart-Celler-Kennedy IANA, such people could afford to pay for a home after just a few years of hard work and scrimping, without huge mortgages.
Sure, let in some Asians, Indians, etc., along with the Europeans, but with current and worsening over-population and over-crowding levels, we shouldn’t be allowing many in from anywhere. We should also stop the “anchor baby” and “chain immigration” scams as part of that.
I’m really embarrassed by the number of racist neighbors I seem to have in Mtn View.
“We should also stop the “anchor baby” and “chain immigration” scams as part of that.”
Thank you for bringing this to the topic. I was in the middle of saying the same thing but decided it wasn’t worth the trouble.
Oscar’s mom — Racist? No…I’m a realist. It has nothing to do with race and more to do with coming here legally and adapting to the American culture. Otherwise, these people are a burdon on society.
People assume that those of us speaking out are against allowing people into America. Not me I assure you. I’m all for it if they come legally, and assimilate like previous legal citizens did.
Immigration is real culprit here. USCIS makes it diffcult for talent to stay here, work hard and flourish. I bet 60-70% of talent (either F1s or H1Bs or J1s) would love to stay and work here. Making talent wait for 7-8 years for their green cards is testing out their patience when there are better opportunities in India, Canada, Australia etc.
The argument against importing people into the US to displace Americans tech workers have nothing to do with Racism or my favorite “Xenophobia”. Rather it has everything to do with economics! The truth is if it were true importing workers into the country raised the average tech worker’s salary by 50% then I’m sure all tech workers would favor program. But if that were the case Corporate America wouldn’t! Those are the irrefutable facts as I see them!
Wadhwa’s research stated above – Over the next five years, he estimates, 100,000 Indian and Chinese immigrants working in technology and engineering will return to their home countries in search of better professional opportunities. He believes tens of thousands of them will be leaving Silicon Valley.
Is that all that is leaving? Come on now…
This article is nothing more than propaganda! Cry me a river!
At least they have a home to go home to…
Hopefully, the United States has learned a lesson. Nothing more than a Trojan Horse!
My descriptor of India was removed due to it being objectionable. I’m sorry, I was wrong, India is such a great place to live it makes our democracy and rights pale in comparison. I suggest the editors spend the time I spent in India, and not as tourists, before being so quick to dismiss my observation.
I am an immigrant and I take great offence at the comments about “human locusts” and “scab jobs”. I get paid fairly, pay taxes, volunteer with charities, help out at my son’s school, and put my salary back into the local economy. I have met hundreds of other immigrants, the vast majority of whom did exactly the same thing.
Although I am shocked at the outpouring of bile against immigrants in the comments above, I suspect most of the commenters would not call me a human locust to my face. Anonymity (none of them signed with their full names) does strange things to some people.
I also take heart noting that every generation of Americans since the founding of the Republic has complained about the latest immigrants. Somehow the immigration wave that brought the commenter’s kin to the US was good for the country and the economy, but the current one will spell disaster for both.
The term “human locusts”, is a poor term as it denotes a destructive insect. Certainly people coming here are not insects.
But there is a job-destructive aspect to the H-1b and L-1 visas.
There is no-doubt that body-shops and IT outsourcing companies are ab-using the H-1b and L-1 visa, in order to remove jobs at all levels. At a time when the United States (especially California) needs its citizens to have jobs.
These Visas have for a long time been used by corporations to de-facto enslave their workers. Wipro, Tata, use these Visas, so that they can bring in workers and keep them on a string.
Body-shops use these Visas to keep workers in an indentured (Slavery) state.
It’s about time that the power to get Visa, and hold resided with the worker, and not the parasitic corporations and body-shops.
If you want lower taxes, if you want a stable U.S. economy, you’ve got to be for keeping and creating every job possible on U.S. soil, whether you are Republican or Democrat you’ve got to be in favor of ending the massive discrimination that occurs against U.S. citizens in the U.S. hi-tech job market place.
It’s a fact corporation ignore applications from U.S. workers in favor or foreign workers. The department of labor has a memo that states it is okay to hire a foreign worker, on an H-1b, even if a qualified U.S. citizen wants the job.
What an idiotic policy. What kind of bribes made such massive open discrimination possible?
U.S. citizens just want a fair, equal, chance to compete for jobs on U.S. soil. Our government, is so corrupt, it doesn’t allow it.
I say we need to “Flip this House” before America is totally dismantled.
USCIS among many other government agencies need a serious overhaul. How ridiculous is it to allow H1B workers to replace a current qualified employee? One would think that would be a discrimination issue. I wonder, how would a USCIS employee feel about training their own replacement? Or say, maybe a Senator?
I am so tired of seeing these “Brain Drain” articles, who are these people trying to fool?
Vet:
I don’t care what your opinion of India is, or how informed you think you are. You’re not allowed to call it or any other country a “cesspool.” Not here.
Martin Omander is absolutely right: None of you brave self-styled defenders of America would speak this way to his face. Anonymity emboldens some people to the point of vulgarity.
A point of the story lost on some readers is that this isn’t about “pluggers.” We’re not talking about the regular joes heading back to India or elsewhere. The subject of this story is the high-tech leaders, who hail from everywhere and who, until recently, flocked here. ANY country covets their presence, for reasons that should be self-evident.
America is a nation of immigrants, and derives a significant part of its progress, whether scientific or otherwise, from the contributions of its immigrants. It would indeed be a blow to the future progress of this nation if the talented individuals from other countries stopped coming here or started going back…
Some well-known immigrants:
Albert Einstein – Nobel Prize Winning Physicist – from Germany
Sergey Brin – google cofounder – from Russia
Vinod Khosla – Sun Microsystems Founder – from India
Ieoh Ming Pei – America’s most famous architect – from China
Madeleine Albright – Former Secretary of State – from Czechoslovakia
Hakeem “The Dream” Olajuwon – Famous NBA player – from Nigeria
Subranhmanyan Chandrasekhar – Nobel Prize winning Physicist – from India
Vikram Pandit – CEO of Citigroup / Citibank – from India
David Ho – Time 1996 person of the year, Harvard AIDS researcher – From Taiwan
I would hold off on some of those names:
Sun – The company doesn’t exist anymore and Citigroup isn’t out of the woods yet
Same thing happened with Irish engineers/professionals, they all went back to Ireland when Celtic Tiger was roaring, he is whimpering now, they are all coming back. Same will happen with the Indian and the Chinese, it will take awhile but it will happen.
Good riddance! I am not against with the “best” & “brightest.” But currently the vast majority of them are not B&B. We can eliminate 99% of the H-1B and L1 visas and the U.S. will be a much better place. American IT workers have jobs with better working conditions.
Because of the H-1B & L1 programs, my salary now is lower than what I made 10 years ago and I have to work much harder because my department decides to hire the indentured H-1B slaves.
Not only that, I notice that some of the H-1B bring really BAD habits from their countries. By the way, I don’t know what about you? Have you noticed the same thing? I do notice that the bathrooms where I work & used to work (@ mutiple companies where there are a lot of H-1Bs) are not as clean as it used to be like 10 years ago before the influx of H-1B & L1. Now I am afraid of using the bathrooms because someone decides not to flush the toilet or he spits into the washing basin & forgets (???) to wash it. It’s DISGUSTING.
By importing so many H-1Bs & L1 workers here, America is LITERALLY becoming a third-world country.
Good riddance. Lets repeal prop. 13 and train our own children to fill these jobs.
Funny how people make assumptions based on their own racist agendas. I’m of Cuban extraction, if that means anything, but I am an American first and foremost.
All those bloody racists have no guts / balls to call Indians names at their work places! They will be striped naked in their own country and paraded in the courts of law…
Heard of this? – Where there is smoke, there is fire! If INDIA is getting known for something, its gotta have a reason! A good one! Scared dogs cannot think straight and run to bite – is what is being seen in these comments…
At my workplace my American colleagues have admitted that they do not support my campaigns pro-immigrants coz they fear that I will take up their kids’ jobs – how ridiculous!
Go to SFO and search for immigration law firms… you will find hundreds of attorneys who are earning their livelihood by filing H1Bs, EADs, APs, AOSs, etc. for folks like us. Send us away and see them cry for food, but oh… what are those food stamps thingy?
For the guy who complains about toilets being dirty because of H1Bs coming in – get a life! Your company needs to hire some more janitors, as simple as that!
BTW, the immigrants I know are far more educated than the Americans who were let go in the last 2 years at so many companies! And sure, we command the Dept. of Labor specified wages and work extra hours to justify our paychecks. Your very institution has recommended that I get paid XYZ dollars to be eligible for an H1B visa! Unlike the Americans who are like tail-shaking-dogs running after money and demanding huge salaries and working exactly 7 hours, 45 minutes per day (5 days only per week) and making capaccinos for 15 minutes and sipping them for 30 minutes twice everyday, the immigrants are focussed towards work and that’s it!
Who would a business hire? A liability or a contributor? You decide.
And before throwing us immigrants out, kindly improve your education system, teach your kids calculus (if you know it and can teach it or send them to any Indian to tutor him/her) and impart to them a mindset capable of dealing with real world technological challenges!
For a description of anti-Indian posts at every blog look at the blog attached to
http://www.informationweek.com/news/storage/disaster_recovery/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222900188
Silicon Valley Innovation Stalled
A loss of venture capital funding for technology companies and a dwindling stream of foreign talent threatens the region’s economic recovery.
By Antone Gonsalves | InformationWeek, Feb 12 2010
I’m sure social pressure would prevent some of these comments from being made face to face.
But an anonymous forum allows discussion of the thoughts and feelings people have when they enter a booth privately to vote.
“For the guy who complains about toilets being dirty because of H1Bs coming in – get a life! Your company needs to hire some more janitors, as simple as that!”
It’s all about culture. Janitors are helpful, but they are not supposed to clean after every single mess. It’s individual responsibility. I travel to Japan and the restrooms are spotless clean with no janitor in sight because the Japanese are taught to clean up after themselves.
Personally I think because of the uncontrolled influx of 3rd-world people to Silicon Valley, we ought to copy Singapore’s law by imposing a $1000 fine for each violation.
Wow. What an embarrassing outpouring of hatred and fear. From both sides. While the posts of OldBen and his cohorts started it all, bringing shame on all Americans and our shared values and founding principles, ImmigrantfromINDIA likewise rained down shame on his fellow Indians.
I would simply remind Old Ben and those of his ilk that we are all immigrants here. Whether our ancestors came over on the Mayflower, swam here from Cuba, fled the potato famine in Ireland, or made the journey for a thousand other reasons, we are all immigrants. Except for those Native Americans, who are still reeling from the vicious and savage treatment they received at the hands of the European invaders who made it possible for the rest of us immigrants to live here. Old Ben and his friends simply can’t stomach the fact that the current wave of immigrants are primarily people of color.
(Neither can Jack Perkins, by the way, whose racism is well documented in forums like OMVNAtalk @ yahoogroups. It makes perfect sense that his career choice involves sending “them” home.)
Seamus, are you implying that I am a “person of no color”? “People of color” is itself a racist phrase, offensively exclusionary against whites. I am an American first, Seamus: of Cuban extraction, therefore about as “white” as a Mexican, as if that matters. America is drowning in immigrants and colonials. What purpose is there in allowing unlimited immigration when unemployment is as high as it is? This country did very well from 1925-1965, when the quotas were in place. My family came here to escape from tyranny, not to make a quick buck and send money “home” or run “home” when the going got tough. America IS my home, my only home. FIX AMERICA FIRST.
Racism has nothing to do with immigration. Creating and maintaining a sustainable and rewarding economy in which Americans can achieve personal security and stability requires limits on immigration, particularly in times like these. There is no sound argument for allowing people into the United States to work if they have no vested interest in the well-being of this country.
Agree with Don Frances and Martin Omander. There are many people online who emboldened by the anonymity vent out their hatred and anger over others. Such people belong to every group, immigrant or citizen as the case here (Old Ben, ImmigrantfromIndia), or democrat/republican in some political forums, etc… These people have problems and frustrations, harbor hatred in their hearts and when they get a chance to vent it out online under anonymity they do so.
Don Frances’ comment looks at things from a broader perspective. There are smart, educated people from all over the world that countries would love to keep them. Every country seeks such people who innovate, work hard, attract businesses and build up the economy. The US attracted such talent from all over the world and retained them which helped build such a strong economy. If the US stops attracting and retaining such people, it slows down economic growth, slows down innovation, while some country, some business elsewhere would use them for their growth and eventually compete with American companies.
It’s a global economy. And ‘global’ also includes people and businesses outside the US border
Seamus – if I had not spoken for the Indians, I would be raining shame down my fellow Indians. I spoke because someone raised an unwarranted finger at me and I am very justified in doing so!
OldBen – are you an old man? Go educate yourself on the Immigration policies of the USA before claiming “uncontrolled immigration”. Because of all the limits and quotas, we are being made to work on the same job for 8-10 years else we would be your bosses’ boss!
LV, there is no uncontrolled influx of 3rd-world people to Silicon Valley. Remember that we are all citizens of the Planet Earth and there is no 3rd world in today’s world. Its all the same Earth! If you pride in calling yourself 1st world – why don’t you work on keeping it the 1st world for years to come? India will be the leading power of tomorrow if you do not educate your kids enough – warning you right now! May be you can also take your kids to Japan to make them learn how to clean up after themselves… if doing that comprises 1st world!
OldBen, you said – “My family came here to escape from tyranny, not to make a quick buck and send money “home” or run “home” when the going got tough.” How diabolical! You stated in the same sentence that your family ran away when the going got tough for them in their homeland and they ditched it and you reprimand Indians for going back to our homeland when a foreign country will ditch us? What’s with we sending our money to our home? You got a problem? Your fellow Americans form a line in India to get medical procedures done and spend the $$s there! Why not preach to them that they should spend the $$ here and get the procedures done here? India does not stop them! We do not have a limit or quota that only 1000 Americans can get their kidney replaced per calendar year despite Indians needing such procedures! But USA does have a limit on how many foreigners can come work here! Has a Filipina nurse cared for anyone you know? She doesn’t mind caring for folks in old-people homes who have been deserted by their own kids! Dude – teach some values to your future generations rather than complaining against a very tolerant group of smart people!
Good day!
ImmigrantFromINDIA: Regarding your engagement with OldBen and his ilk, I can only offer this advice: “Never argue with an idiot. He’ll drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience.”
Folks,
This is a good time to make this comment thread registered-only. It’s very easy to register — just click on the link below and follow the instructions.
We’ve found that making controversial topics registered-only tones down the rancor a little bit.
I have written deFudge directly asking what he means by these obscure references and accusations. The only multiple ID posters on this comment thread are “Silicon Valley Oldie” and “TIRED” — all other users here have been legit.
The 2+ F/H/L rejectionists claiming to represent all Americans are from SPLC designated hate groups and labor unions. They post with multiple ids at every blog.
They don’t represent American opinion. Instead, they are pesky tax-payer liabilities.
Don’t generalize your response to all Americans.
Hi My name is Jake Leone and I represent myself when posting here or any other location.
I want responsible immigration policy that ends human-trafficking and fosters vibrant United States.
deFudge has slandered me several times. Using McCarthy-ist tactics to in a vain and (a rather evil) failed attempt to throw dirt without really countering anything I have written.
I want human rights, I love other cultures, and want a United States without indenturement and human-trafficking.
I’ll keep talking about a responsible immigration policy and when Defudge grows up maybe then he will be able to construct credible, intelligent arguments.
We’ve been waiting quite a long time for this to occur.
No doubt immigration and abuse is a touchy subject but I think most people agree that this country needs to make a move to return and keep jobs within the US borders. I don’t see a lot of people arguing that the USA is what it is without people immigrating. I just don’t understand people that feel coming here the right way is wrong?
“Remember that we are all citizens of the Planet Earth and there is no 3rd world in today’s world. Its all the same Earth!”
What planet do you live on? Yes, there are 1st world and then the 3rd word. Well, a flight from Singapore to Mumbai told me so. From Singapore, everything is clean and orderly. As soon as I arrived in Mumbai and got into town, my reaction was “OMG!” The difference between the two worlds is staggering.
“May be you can also take your kids to Japan to make them learn how to clean up after themselves… if doing that comprises 1st world!”
There is a whole lot more about the 1st world than tall buiding, high tech companies or cleaning after themselves if you are suggesting. It is about the quality of life, the behaviors of its citizens, the environment, etc. I highly suggest that you read “From Third World to First World — the Singapore Story 1965-2000″ by Lee Kuan Yew — Singapore’s ex-Prime Minister. In it, he stresses not only economic and technological development but he also puts a great emphasis from changing the behaviors of Singaporeans from being 3rd-world citizens to 1st world by imposing a BIG fines on people leaving public toilets dirty, throwing trash on the street, etc. It actually took decades to change the Singaporeans’ behaviors. Today I have to admit, Singapore’s streets and public places are much cleaner than Silicon Valley’s which are degrading so badly. The large influx of illegals and the 3rd-world workers contribute to this degradation. They haven’t gone through the period of adjustment as the citizens in Singapore.
” If you pride in calling yourself 1st world – why don’t you work on keeping it the 1st world for years to come? India will be the leading power of tomorrow if you do not educate your kids enough – warning you right now!
Of course I intend to keep the U.S. in the 1st world and one of the ways to do it is to speak out against uncontrolled immigration that takes job away from American citizens and lower the quality of life of its citizens. The reason I mentioned about dirty toilet is to show you how the quality of life as a U.S. citizens has been badly affected by the H-1B and L1 programs. They not only lower my salary and job opportunity. They also lower the quality of life. Not only that, I feel insulted by the new comers who come here and take my job and then saying they are much superior to us Americans who are uneducated, stupid, etc. It’s no wonder American citizens (both and permanent residents) want the new foreigners on the next planes out. Adios! Good riddance!
“India will be the leading power of tomorrow if you do not educate your kids enough – warning you right now!”
Sure! Good luck! I hope you follow my suggestion to read Lee Kuan Yew book “From Third World to First World” and follow his suggestion first. And you don’t have to worry about me educating my kids. They will be well-versed in both subject matters and 1st-world behaviors. When they go to Japan, the very-picky Japanese would be impressed.
There is not “World Citizenship” it is a myth.
People only have nation-based-citizenship. If you believe anything else you believe in a fantasy.
People, in the United States, have citizenship so they can have political participation rights, among other things. People in the United States, citizen or not, also have rights. All of these rights come from the United States Constitution.
There are no individual-level rights granted and enforced by any world body.
People in other countries find the rights granted to U.S. citizens to be excessive. For example: South Park is a very offensive show in some countries and would be banned, and making such a show would be criminal act, in certain other countries.
But freedom of speech is the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and such shows are largely protected by the the 1st amendment right.
From what I can tell, countries don’t band together until there is some mass-genocide or mass-threat. Rwanda, Kosovo, … action only occurred after several massacres. To have any “World-Rights” you’ve got to be a group of several hundred thousand people. Individuals have no rights at the “World-Level”, therefore any fantasy about your having “World-Citizenship” is worthless.
Until nations are willing to guarantee civil rights, something like what modern democracies have, you don’t want to preach about world citizenship. You want your nation to guarantee your rights.
You wouldn’t want a world body messing in your local or national politics. Because that would more than likely be a world-dictatorship telling everyone, religion is out-the-window, or free-thinking-politician X should be executed in favor of puppet-politician Y.
Rights are all that matter in citizenship, and that only occurs at the national level or lower.
52% of high-tech Silicon Valley start-ups were founded by immigrants.
You want to send these entrepreneurs packing? Other countries would love to have them, and the jobs they bring.
Source:
“Skilled Immigration and Economic Growth”
published in Applied Research in Economic Development, May 2008
Study covered companies with 20+ employees, $1M+ in annual sales, founded 1995-2005, working with semiconductors, computers/communications, biosciences, defense/aerospace, environmental, software, and innovation/manufacturing-related services.
Download the full paper from
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1141190
/Martin Omander
“The industry lobbyists note that 50 percent of Silicon Valley startups have been founded by immigrants. But since immigrants make up more than half of Silicon Valley engineers, the lobbyists’ figure merely shows that entrepreneurship rates of immigrants and natives are the same. There is no evidence that the displacement of American workers has produced a net increase in startup”
Dr. Norman Matloff, New York Times, April 8, 2009
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/do-we-need-foreign-technology-workers/
“The world’s “best and brightest” should be welcomed, but most H-1B workers are not in that league. Meanwhile, many of our own best and brightest are squeezed out of the market once they become “expensive.” The industry’s claim that American kids don’t study enough math and science is a red herring, and is rank hypocrisy, with the layoffs of thousands of U.S. citizens and permanent residents who were math and science whizzes as kids.”
Dr. Norman Matloff, New York Times, April 8, 2009
Yeah right! Indians say that they are more educated than Americans because they have a college degree. Is that so? I ran into this article on the Straits Times in Singapore.
“…For one thing, in a bid to get more, the definition of quality often slips. For another, just because you have a college degree does not mean you are skilled. In India, you can buy a degree pretty cheap, there are many ways to get around the system,’ he says.
Then, there are also unintended consequences that lead to long-term labour market distortions.
For example, young and hungry foreign students, mostly from India and China, now form the majority of graduate students enrolled in science, engineering and technology faculties in US universities.
Desperate to get sponsored for legal immigrant visas, they go on to serve as relatively poorly paid post-doctoral researchers for five to 10 years, holding down wages and, at the same time, discouraging Americans from studying and working in science and engineering.”
– Professor Phillip Martin
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/Office/Story/A1Story20100224-200565.html
Another reason why we need to stop this madness if we want to encourage a new generation of American students to work in science and engineering careers.
By the way, to the citizens of Mountain View & Palo Alto. We need to kick out Anna Eshoo in the November Election. Vote for Dave Chapman Instead.
http://www.davechapmanforcongress.com/jobs.php?jobs=Protect+Your+Job%A0
Martin Omander: “52% of high-tech Silicon Valley start-ups were founded by immigrants. Source:
Skilled Immigration and Economic Growth By Vivek Wadhwa, AnnaLee Saxenian, Ben Rissing, Gary Gereffi | Applied Research in Economic Development, Vol 5, No 1, pp. 6-14, 2008”
Vivek Wadhwa [1]: “In the past two months, Kauffman Foundation has published two of my reports outlining how U.S. immigration policy is chasing away talented foreigners who had previously served as a backbone for U.S. science innovation. I have received more than 1,000 e-mails attacking me for my views and disparaging my race and heritage. Some have threatened to do me harm.”
Norman Matloff, Computer Science, UC Davis [1]: “To make the claim that somehow the [anti-H-1B visa] movement is motivated by race is flat-out wrong. People can get really emotional in listservs, some of them to the point of getting paranoid.…But even then I don’t see racial or xenophobic language [emerge], except on occasion.” [2, 3, 4]
Ron Hira, Public Policy, Rochester Institute of Technology [5 page 16]: “American worker groups like the Programmers Guild have complained repeatedly about what they describe as “fake PERM ads”, where these ads are not bona fide job opportunities.” [6, 7, 8]
Ron Hira [page 16]: http://www.zazona.com/SHAMEH1B/Library/Archives/60Minutes.
htm [9]
[1] http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406735/1004406735/ShowThread.aspx#1004406735
[2] http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423745/1004423745/ShowThread.aspx#1004423745
[3] http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423751/1004423751/ShowThread.aspx#1004423751
[4] http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423810/1004423810/ShowThread.aspx#1004423810
continued …
…
[5] http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/bp257/
[6] http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/2008/01/programmers-guild-presents-at-sloan.html
[7] http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back407transcript.html
[8] http://www.splcenter.org/intel/nativist_lobby.jsp
[9] http://www.jobdestruction.info/ShameH1B/H1BvsGreenCard.htm
To classify a movement as “Racist” or “Xenophobic” is the mistake. The leaders of the immigration reform movement (all sides, for/against) are very respectable people. And are NOT racist in anyway.
I have heard of death threats against people who want limit H-1b visas. This is after all the internet (full of crazy people) and organized criminals are doing the human trafficking using H-1b visas. I guess using De-Fudge’s logic, I should classify all those who want unlimited numbers of H-1b visas as genocidal-racists since death threats have been flung from both sides?
At times others have called me “anglo” or “white”. Oddly when I am neither, but people assume so much.
But I have seen both side of the racist situation. And I am a witness to discrimination against U.S. citizens in the hi-tech job market place.
The answer in this debate, is to debate the real issues and the real solutions. I am not going to end all racism against U.S. citizens as a group, by foreign nationals who seek only to hire from their own country for jobs on U.S. soil.
The goal of reform has to be greater over-sight and examination. Limitation of visas, with the intent to make sure that Industry values them, and uses them wisely. Better education of those who want to who immigrate to understand the Constitution and to abide by the Civil Rights Laws of the United States.
The use of Visas as a stepping stone to citizenship, not as way to outsources millions of U.S. jobs to other countries.
As for those who throw insults, and make McCarthyist associations against people, and those who send threats. Let the law deal with them. Use your heart and mind to discern who you should be listening to. Make a spirited, honorable defense of your position on the matter at hand.
Everybody should be able to live and work near their families and friends. Anyone who does work here has to pay taxes and buy locally.
That is money being pumped into the local economy.
Does anyone have a tech idea that hasn’t been thought of yet? I didn’t think so. Technology is a cash cow. You have to look to biotech and green energy for new economic growth.
Jake Leone: … outsources millions of U.S. jobs to other countries.
Ron Hira: Obama is either ignorant or naive about the real job market for American IT workers. He is doing his level best, with these appointments, to undermine American workers and their livelihoods.
Daniel Griswold: We can all acknowledge up front that some Americans have lost jobs because of trade in general and outsourcing in particular. How many, we don’t know for sure, but by all credible sources the numbers are small. The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported earlier this year that only about 2% of recent layoffs involving 50 or more workers could be blamed on import competition or foreign outsourcing. Of the remaining 98% of displaced workers who lost their jobs because of factors other than trade — new technology, domestic competition, changing consumer tastes — Ron Hira says virtually nothing.
Mary Amiti and Shang-Jin Wei: Outsourcing does not lead to net job losses. Rather, our results indicate that, when looking at finely disaggregated sectors, you find that only a small number of jobs are lost as a result of service outsourcing.
For example, when disaggregating the U.S. economy to 450 industries, there is a small negative effect on employment. But aggregating up to 100 sectors, there were no job losses associated with service outsourcing.
This implies that a worker could lose her job due to outsourcing but then she, or an unemployed worker, may find a job in another firm within the broader industry classification. Hence, aggregated data would indicate that there are no net job losses when there is sufficient job creation in another sector, which indeed seems to be the case.
Ron Hira: I’m actually trained as a control systems engineer. So my thought process and framework are really shaped around systems. And I think about systems in terms of connections, causation, causal effects, cause and effect, and feedback loops. And then as an engineer, I think about what we design and testing the gap between our design goal and what happens in practice.
Jake Leone: The answer in this debate, is to debate the real issues.
Ron Hira: Discussion of the effects of offshoring on the S&T workforce is constrained by the lack of reliable and complete data. However, the data that are available suggest that offshoring is growing and becoming significant.
Mary Amiti and Shang-Jin Wei: In developed countries, there is a tremendous amount of anxiety over international outsourcing of services. The anxiety comes in part from the perception one may obtain from the news media that global service trade is exploding and that it is dominated by lopsided, one-way outsourcing from developed countries to developing countries, and that this will lead to massive job losses in countries such as US and UK.
This paper presents a body of evidence that suggest neither aspect of the anxiety is well supported by the data.
Mary Amiti and Shang-Jin Wei: To conclude, the risk of service outsourcing dramatically reducing job growth in the advanced economies has been greatly exaggerated.
Ron Hira: Recognized as an international expert on outsourcing … Quoted more than three-hundred times by a variety of magazines and newspapers.
Ron Hira : I’m a professor and I talk to lots of young people. When they think about a career, what they do is talk to people who are in the field. And the people in the field are telling them that this isn’t the best place to be because there’s outsourcing going on and you could be replaced by folks that are coming in as guest workers. And we need to change that attitude within the profession, within those workers. If they perceive that there are problems in the government that are actually working against them, they’re not going to encourage their nephews and nieces to go into those fields.
Karlyn Bowman and Andrew Rugg: 31% of employed respondents said they were worried that they would be laid off in the near future, double what it was in 2008. The 2009 response represents the highest level of anxiety since the trend began in 1997.
Outsourcing doesn’t appear to be a big worry: Only 10% worried that their company would move jobs overseas.
Tyler Cowen: It is wrong to play down the costs of globalization, but the reality is that we’ve been playing down its benefits for a long time. Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Meatloaf-Sanders-Thibodeau already pander to Americans’ suspicion of “curry”. There is no need for the rest of us to jump on this bandwagon. Instead, we need more awareness of the cosmopolitan benefits of trade and the often hidden — but no less real — gains for ordinary Americans.
From http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406942/1004406942/ShowThread.aspx#1004406942
DeFudge you are so detached from reality as to be ridiculous.
You can’t see what is really happening, cheap labor means higher cost of resources (in terms of labor) for everyone.
The only people who are benefiting from shift of jobs overseas are the Oil companies, Oil producing countries. Every else gets to eek out a living.
Why do you think gasoline is at 3$/gallon, and staying there? It’s because people all around the world have to sell their labor cheap in order to have the oil that it takes to ship the food they need.
Why do you think there is talk of moving oil sales to be valued in some other currency? Because the U.S. doesn’t produce anything anymore. Further lending nations are worried about the astronomical U.S. national debt, phenomenal rate of acceleration of that debt.
Yes, people can find burger flipper, janitor, security guard, gardener jobs…. But many of these jobs don’t pay the mortgage and they probably don’t have health insurance.
So there goes your consumer buying power. People making minimum wage can’t buy much. When you are on minimum wage, you pay rent and buy food, that’s it, and most of that is locally produced.
Sustainable economies don’t allow this boom/bust cycle, they protect jobs and they limit outsourcing.
Really dumb economies bend-over backward, accept the corporate bribe money, and stick it to the working class.
Actually the theory was if you built up a middle class in India and China you would have 2 billion potential customers for your products and services.
Unfortunately, it didn’t work out that way. Everyone wants to sell to the USA but no one wants to buy. That is why I think we should start selling our nuclear plants all over the world. That is something other countries actually want.
We have scientific and technical talent galore in Silicon Valley that was born here, and still *is* here. You know the ones I’m talking about? All the people whose jobs were given away to people who do not belong here, will not assimilate into American culture, and are not welcome in any case. Let them go home, I say…and not a moment too soon. It’s about time…
Then…you shall see a recovery, and not before!
I have to say I have worked with Indians and Chinese Americans. They were great workers, hard working, smart, etc. We shouldn’t criticize them. We should try to emulate them. Everyone has room for improvement.
We need to become an export economy not a consumer economy.
You have to think about it. All that red meat makes you feel good. I like waving my American flag. But they took the trouble to learn your language. They flew to your country to work. That seems pretty brave to me. They left their culture, their family, their friends to work here.
We need to learn what other people and other countries want to buy and sell it to them.
I disagree that sales is an evil profession. Without sales there would be no engineering, there would be no company at all.
Charles: Everyone wants to sell to the USA but no one wants to buy.
From http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406942/1004406942/ShowThread.aspx#1004406942
Richard Baldwin [Jun 15 2009]: Like trade in goods, trade in services is a two-way street. Most countries receive outsourcing of services from other countries as well as outsource to other countries.
The US, as it turns out, is a net “insourcer”. That is, the world sends more service sector jobs to the US than the US sends to the world, where the jobs under discussion involve trade in services of computing (which includes computer software designs) and other business services (which include accounting and other back-office operations).
Mary Amiti and Shang-Jin Wei [2004]: In 2002, the top five insourcers in dollar terms are US ($59 billion), UK ($37 billion), Germany ($28 billion), France ($21 billion), and the Netherlands ($20 billion).
India, a country that has received the most media attention as a recipient of outsourcing, is ranked at 6th place ($18.6 billion) and China is ranked at 14th place ($10 billion). It is worth emphasizing that India is one of the biggest exporters of business services in the world but there are five industrialized countries ahead of it.
W. Michael Cox [Feb 17 2010]: Exports of American services have jumped by 84% since 2000, while the growth rate among goods was 66%. America trails both China and Germany in sales of goods abroad, but ranks No. 1 in global services by a wide margin.
And while trade deficits in goods have been enormous — $840 billion in 2008 — the country runs a large and growing surplus in services: we exported $144 billion more in services than we imported, dwarfing the surpluses of $75 billion in 2000 and $58 billion in 1992.
Charles: We need to learn what other people and other countries want to buy and sell it to them.
W. Michael Cox [Feb 17 2010]: Obama was right to place a new emphasis on exports, but the best thing the administration can do is reduce impediments to trade and then get out of the way so America’s resourceful companies and talented workers can increase their dominance in the global marketplace.
Mary Amiti and Shang-Jin Wei [2004]: UK and US have the largest net surpluses in business services and hence would suffer the most in terms of the forgone dollar value of such trade if other countries cut service outsourcing.
Richard Baldwin [Jun 15 2009]: What governments should be doing is helping their service exporters to compete, not wringing their hands about one-way competition from low-wage nations.
Ron Hira [Feb 17 2010]: NASSCOM, India’s off-shore outsourcing trade association. Som Mittal, a former executive of Hewlett-Packard India, and now president of NASSCOM, recently described why the H-1B program is so important to his member firms, “We need “curry” to travel back and forth between the United States and India to consult on and complete projects”. Note NASSCOM and the Indian government see the H-1B and L-1 visa as a trade, rather than immigration, policy issue.
Amiti, Mary and Shang-Jin Wei [2004]: Interestingly, only a very small proportion comes from India. In 1992, imports of private services from India were only 1/2 of 1 percent of total U.S. imports of private services. In 2002, imports of private services from India to the United States increased to nearly 1 percent of total imports of these services.
There was a larger increase in U.S. imports from India in business services – a subcategory of private services – which has been the focus of most of the media attention. They increased from 0.45% in 1992 to nearly 2% of total imports of business services in 2002.
Columbia University Lorana Sullivan Fellow Moira Herbst’s investigative business journalism: Not a fan of the curries favored by his roommates, he ate his meals at a nearby Subway sandwich shop.
Columbia University Lorana Sullivan Fellow Moira Herbst’s investigative business journalism: … “Kevin,” who publishes a blog that routinely refers to Indian tech workers as “slumdogs”.
Ron Hira: In 2008, Infosys, Wipro, Satyam and Tata Consultancy, all offshore outsourcing firms, were the top H-1B recipients. They use the H-1B and L-1 visa programs to facilitate the offshoring of American jobs to low-cost countries like India. Companies achieve this by bringing “curry” to the U.S. for training and then rotating them back to their home country, with improved skills.
Marketplace: Most “curries” coming through us have no intention of settling in the United States. These are “curries” who are coming here to do a job, have fun while they can in the United States and then use this experience in different parts of the world.
That attitude riles Ron Hira. He says H-1B visas were never intended to let “curries” become globetrotters who work for America’s competitors.
National Foundation for American Policy: It is a dim view of humanity – and a misreading of the nation’s economy – to assume that opportunity for “curry” must mean misery for others.
National Research Council Committee: The impact of foreign individuals on the US economy and workforce is a controversial subject, and the debate is complicated because of unspoken feelings and hidden agendas on the part of various stakeholders.
Jake Leone [Mar 8 2010 5:36 pm]: cheap labor means higher cost of resources (in terms of labor) for everyone.
Ron Hira [Feb 17 2010 page 2]: Back in 1993, CBS’s 60 Minutes television show aired a story on H-1B computer programmers who were contracted out to Hewlett-Packard for a mere $10 per hour, nowhere near what the company would have to pay permanent residents.
Ron Hira [Feb 17 2010 page 11]: we should institute workable, effective labor market tests and give U.S. workers an enforceable right to jobs for which they are qualified before admitting “curry” to compete with them. Congress should ensure the nondisplacement of Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Matloff-Sanders-Thibodeau US (Tech) workers, ensure “curries” are paid at least market wages, and audit “curry”-employers regularly for compliance.
Ron Hira [Feb 17 2010 page 2]: the paper proposes policy recommendations to overhaul the “curry”-visa programs to ensure that Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Matloff-Sanders-Thibodeau US (Tech) workers are not undercut.
Steven E. Landsburg: Bullying and protectionism have a lot in common. They both use force (either directly or through the power of the law) to enrich someone else at your involuntary expense.
If you’re forced to pay $20 an hour to an American for goods you could have bought from a Mexican for $5 an hour, you’re being extorted. When a free trade agreement allows you to buy from the Mexican after all, rejoice in your liberation — even if Ron Hira, Norman Matloff, grASSley, Durbin, Bernie Sanders, John Miano, Kim Berry, Donna Conroy, … don’t want you to.
National Foundation for American Policy: A number of the provisions proposed by lawmakers view skilled foreign nationals as something that must be kept from our shores, rather than as human beings with skills and ambitions that benefit our nation. Although cloaked in the guise of “protecting” American workers, these proposals do not offer protection but rather appeal to our lowest instincts.
Ron Hira [Feb 17 2010 page 7]: And according to a Tata Consultancy Services executive, “curries” are less expensive than comparable American workers. Then Vice President Phiroz Vandrevala described, in an interview with an India-based business magazine, how his company derives competitive advantages by paying “curries” below-market wages:
Our wage per “curry” is 20-25% lesser than U.S. wage for a similar employee,” Vandrevala said. “Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It’s a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there’s nothing wrong in that….The issue is that of getting “curries” in the U.S. on wages far lower than local wage rate.
Jonathan Hoenig: In the short run, a linesman at General Motors who loses a job or steelworker who takes a pay cut at U.S. Steel can say that global capitalism is harming him. But he’s ignoring the vast increase in wealth, often reflected in lower prices, that’s taking place because all the fields, including his, are continually evolving and improving.
In a free market, the proper response to losing a job or not being able to command a higher salary is to improve one’s skills[, ethics and attitude instead of repeating complete G-A-R-B-A-G-E in http://www.epi.org/authors/bio/hira_ron/ papers, http://cis.org/search/node/matloff reports, BusinessWeek/ComputerWorld articles and F/H/L blogs. But if you just keep doing the same thing while “curries” are improving, nobody is going to pay as much for your products and services. And they shouldn’t.
Steven E. Landsburg: Some people suggest, however, that it makes sense to isolate the moral effects of a single new trading opportunity or free trade agreement. Surely we have fellow citizens who are hurt by those agreements, at least in the limited sense that they’d be better off in a world where trade flourishes, except in this one instance. What do we owe those fellow citizens?
One way to think about that is to ask what your moral instincts tell you in analogous situations. Suppose, after years of buying shampoo at your local pharmacy, you discover you can order the same shampoo for less money on the Web. Do you have an obligation to compensate your pharmacist? If you move to a cheaper apartment, should you compensate your landlord? When you eat at McDonald’s, should you compensate the owners of the diner next door? Public policy should not be designed to advance moral instincts that we all reject every day of our lives.
In what morally relevant way, then, might displaced workers differ from displaced pharmacists or displaced landlords? You might argue that pharmacists and landlords have always faced cutthroat competition and therefore knew what they were getting into, while decades of tariffs and quotas have led manufacturing workers to expect a modicum of protection. That expectation led them to develop certain skills, and now it’s unfair to pull the rug out from under them.
Charles Murray [1 post on Dec 25 2009 10:18:40 AM]: Half of the children are below average. Many children cannot learn more than rudimentary reading and math.
BEN WILDAVSKY [1]: … how few students are prepared to meet even the minimal demands of a real college education. Too many undergrads can’t write with minimal competence or understand basic cultural references.
Evan Thomas [2]: Grade inflation is so out of control in the nation’s high schools that 43% of college-bound seniors taking the SATs have A averages — even though SAT scores have remained flat or drifted slowly downward for years.
Kip Peters [1]: As the husband of a hard-working teacher, I know firsthand that the most important parts of the article are the two statements describing how Asian-American students score higher at all income levels because they take tougher courses and their families place a strong value on success in education.
The problem is not the teachers, schools, programs, F/H/L/curries or income levels. Until the situation changes at home [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406818/1004406818/ShowThread.aspx#1004406818] and everyone places a strong value on success in education and hard work, no Durbin-Grassley-Sanders bill, Neufeld USCIS memo, McGirr CBP curry-deportation [http://cyrusmehta.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-uscis-memo-on-employer-employee.html] is going to make a difference [http://www.programmersguild.org/docs/stephanie_job_11sept2009.html]. It is time to recognize that there is a responsibility on the part of the parents and the students, too.
LV [Mar 7 2010 12:15 am]: Another reason why we need to stop this madness if we want to encourage a new generation of American students to work in science and engineering careers. http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423755/1004423755/ShowThread.aspx#1004423755
Gregory Clark [1]: Much of the supposed improvement in high school and college graduation rates has come by asking less of graduates. We can certainly arrange to have everyone “graduate” from high school, but whether they will have the skills needed to make it is doubtful.
Marty Nemko [1]: too many students who aren’t skilled become degree holders, promoting a perception among employers that higher education doesn’t work. That piece of paper no longer means very much, and employers know that.
Kristi Oloffson[1]: Employers and career experts see a growing problem in American society – an abundance of college graduates, many burdened with tuition-loan debt, heading into the work world with a degree that doesn’t mean much anymore.
Charles Murray [1]: We have set up a standard known as the BA, stripped it of its traditional content, and made it an artificial job qualification. Then we stigmatize everyone who doesn’t get one.
[1] Work Visas Back On Congressional Agenda
By Marianne Kolbasuk McGee | InformationWeek, Dec 17 2009
http://www.informationweek.com/news/government/policy/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222002313
[2] Washington is working just fine. It’s us that’s broken.
By Evan Thomas | NEWSWEEK, Feb 28 2010
http://www.newsweek.com/id/234267
—
Ron Hira [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423812/1004423812/ShowThread.aspx#1004423812] (Feb 17 2010): The H-1B and L-1 are very large guest worker programs, admitting 214,261 new foreign workers in fiscal year 2008 alone, a year in which the U.S. economy lost a net of 920,000 jobs.
Guildy Prez Kim Berry [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406818/1004406818/ShowThread.aspx#1004406818] (Oct 17 2007): We have many members, BS, MS, PhD, with many years of experience, sending out hundreds of resumes, and unable to find full time employment.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [Mar 8 2010 at 8:05 pm]: We have scientific and technical talent galore in Silicon Valley that was born here, and still *is* here.
F/H/L/curry/outsourcing is not the problem for Ron Hira’s Leones/Berrys who follow every blog like fleas on a dog.
These know-it-all philosopher-kings have more baggage than Heathrow airport. They could not compete [1 post on Dec 20 2009 7:18:16 PM] in [Mar] 2008 when
a) Major US Tech companies listed 470+ job openings each for skilled positions but
i) companies had 40% chance of hiring new H-1B on Oct 1 2007/2008 (first H-1B hiring day),
ii) companies could not hire 60% new H-1Bs on Oct 1 2007/2008,
iii) companies could not hire new H-1B for 12+ months after Oct 1 2007/2008, and
iv) all professional categories had 2+% unemployment rate despite 10+% perenial unemployable rate.
b) Defence companies, that do not hire H/L, listed 1265+ job openings each.
Jake Leone [Mar 8 2010 at 6:58 am]: “The answer in this debate, is to debate the real issues”
Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Matloff-Sanders-Thibodeau US (Tech) workers are lagging for their own reasons: low skills and destructive personal habits.
Their problems are the eternal consequences of their failure to take lessons from reality.
Their choices have set them ablaze. But they continue to bathe in gasoline.
[1] Work Visas Back On Congressional Agenda
By Marianne Kolbasuk McGee | InformationWeek, Dec 17 2009
http://www.informationweek.com/news/government/policy/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222002313
—
Ron Hira [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423812/1004423812/ShowThread.aspx#1004423812] (Feb 17 2010): While no one knows the exact number of H/Ls in the United States at any one time, estimates are in the range of 600,000 Hs and 350,000 Ls. [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423794/1004423794/ShowThread.aspx#1004423794]
Peter Coy [1 post on Dec 20 2009 7:07:47 PM] (Apr 30 2009): In the midst of the worst recession in a generation or more, with 13 million people unemployed, there are approximately 3 million jobs that employers are actively recruiting for but so far have been unable to fill.
Louis Uchitelle (Jun 24 2009): Six million jobs have disappeared across the country … The unemployment rate has risen precipitously to 9.4%, the highest level in nearly 30 years. But unnoticed in the government’s standard employment data, employers are begging for qualified applicants for certain occupations, even in hard times.
In a monthly count of online job openings – listed on Monster.com and more than 1,200 similar Web sites – it breaks the advertised openings into 22 broad occupational categories and compares those with the number of unemployed whose last job, according to the bureau, was in each category. In only four of the categories – architecture and engineering, the physical sciences, computer and mathematical science, and health care – were the unemployed equal to or fewer than the listed job openings. There were, in sum, 1.09 million listed openings and only 582,700 unemployed people presumably available to fill them.
Jake Leone (Mar 8 2010 at 6:58 am): And I am a witness to discrimination against U.S. citizens in the hi-tech job market place. [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423810/1004423810/ShowThread.aspx#1004423810]
Anne Fisher (Jul 21 2009): Unemployment among tech workers stands at about 4.9%, far lower than the 9.6% overall U.S. jobless rate.
Peter Coy: The worst housing bust in decades has left the unemployed frozen in place. They can’t move to get work because they can’t sell their homes.
General Accounting Office [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423764/1004423764/ShowThread.aspx#1004423764]: In addition to the need for technical skills and experience, employers that hired for consulting positions – in which workers are sent to different job locations or relocated frequently – said that flexibility was an important consideration in hiring decisions. These employers said that H-1Bs, having moved to US from another country, were very flexible in moving within US.
Anne Fisher (Jul 21 2009): With so many people looking for work, why are so many jobs going begging? The short answer: A scarcity of candidates with the skills, or combinations of skills and credentials, that employers want.
Guildy Prez Kim Berry [http://cyrusmehta.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-uscis-memo-on-employer-employee.html] (Jan 25 2010 6:39 AM): In the current economy there are plenty of American programmers – and American consulting firms – that need the work. Thank you USCIS.
Ron Hira [http://www.sharedprosperity.org/av/070328/transcript.pdf
page 23]: And US workers, particularly technology workers Jake Leones, are really concerned about “curry” undercutting their wages and their opportunities. And if you follow what’s going on in the IT world and you talk to IT workers Kim Berrys, they really view these “curries” frankly as a scam, and as a way for corporations to take advantage and really undercut their labor market.
J. Scott Orr [1 post Dec 25 2009 10:10:28 AM]: The Utah-based school is attracting some of America’s most driven students with a promise of high-paying jobs in the tech sector upon graduation. Since classes began in 2004, there have been 286 graduates, 94% of whom quickly landed jobs at an average annual salary of $62,000+.
Jagdish N. Bhagwati [1 post on Dec 25, 2009 10:10:28 AM]: The Berrys who do not get jobs in competition with “curries” are F grade Leones who have no business being in college and have to be curved to C to avoid their ruckus.
Ron Hira [http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/bp257/ page 11]: “we should institute workable, effective labor market tests and give Berrys-Leones an enforceable right to jobs for which they are qualified before admitting “curries” to compete with them. Congress should ensure the nondisplacement of Berrys-Leones.”
8+ Federal investigations demanded by Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Matloff-Sanders-Thibodeau Inc did not find a single illustrative real-life instance where “curry” was hired instead of qualified Berry-Leone or “curry” replaced Berry-Leone (who trained replacement). [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004423666/1004423666/ShowThread.aspx#1004423666]
The debate isn’t about how to narrow the actual pacific ocean sized Berry-Leone attitude-ethics-skills deficit, but about how best to impose a gr asslized “curry” agenda that has no basis in reality.
NFAP [1 post on Dec 24 2009 12:39:59 PM]: “Companies will hire the best people for the jobs and place them outside the US if US law prohibits “curries” from being hired inside America. Smaller companies without an offshore option will continue to go without key personnel needed to grow. Congress cannot compel US companies to offer positions to unqualified Berrys-Leones.”
Hira-Matloff fabricated Durbin-Grassley-Sanders bills, Donald Neufeld USCIS memos and Matt McGirr CBP curry-deportations will be as beneficial to Berrys-Leones as a bottle of suntan lotion in a snowstorm.
[1] Work Visas Back On Congressional Agenda
By Marianne Kolbasuk McGee | InformationWeek, Dec 17 2009
http://www.informationweek.com/news/government/policy/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222002313
Jake Leone [Mar 5 2010 1:38 pm]: My name is Jake Leone and I represent myself when posting here or any other location.
when deFudge grows up maybe then he will be able to construct credible, intelligent arguments.
We’ve been waiting quite a long time for this to occur.
The Eye [Mar 8, 2010 at 8:05 pm]: You know the ones I’m talking about? [http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9142806?page=12 posts on Dec 30 2009 – 10:14 & Dec 31 2009 – 20:16, http://www.informationweek.com/news/storage/disaster_recovery/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222900188 post on Feb 14 2010 9:34:34 AM]
…
Ron Hira [http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406942/1004406942/ShowThread.aspx#1004406942]: And what’s interesting about the IT workers Kim Berrys who are being most adversely affected is that not only do they not have a voice in Washington, but they also don’t even belong to a professional society. And so they have no voice and no way of channeling their concerns. And I’m not sure that they’re educated enough in terms of how to communicate their concerns to politicians and the like. So there’s an opportunity for educating those folks on how you channel all of this angst that’s out there. [http://www.jobdestruction.info/ShameH1B/H1BvsGreenCard.htm, http://programmersguild.blogspot.com/2008/01/programmers-guild-presents-at-sloan.html, http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back407transcript.html, http://www.splcenter.org/intel/nativist_lobby.jsp%5D
GuildY Prez Kim Berry: Who do you figure Donald Neufeld/Matt McGirr/Durbin/Grassley/Sanders are listening to when
1) issuing USCIS memos,
2) deporting “curry” at Point of Entry (by CBP), and
3) proposing Senate bill S.887 Durbin-Grassley H/L reform?
…
Why are they involved in F/H/L debate? [http://app.businessweek.com/UserComments/combo_review?action=getComment&productId=52256&reviewId=607298#607298 posts on Mar 14 2010 3:27 PM GMT & Mar 14 2010 3:24 PM GMT & Mar 13 2010 5:08 PM GMT, http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9159838?page=1 … posts on Mar 2 2010 – 17:38 & Mar 9 2010 – 17:05 & Mar 9 2010 – 17:26 & Mar 9 2010 – 17:35, http://app.businessweek.com/UserComments/combo_review?action=getComment&productId=52256&reviewId=608067#608067 posts on Mar 16 2010 1:29 AM GMT & Mar 16 2010 1:26 AM GMT]
Matloff (Mar 6 2010 9:22 pm): layoffs of thousands of U.S. citizens and permanent residents who were math and science whizzes as kids
From http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/permalink/1004406942/1004406942/ShowThread.aspx#1004406942
Willem Buiter: Although some US workers may be right in their belief that they have become worse off during during the past couple of decades as a results of globalisation developments, it is also true that these same workers are deeply mistaken in their belief that trade restrictions/protectionism can restore the status quo ante and bring back the well-paid manufacturing jobs (and increasingly also service jobs) that were lost to foreign competition.
Global dissemination of scientific and technical knowledge and of best-practice engineering and management skills is also irreversible. That part of the globalisation genie cannot be put back into the bottle.
Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Matloff-Sanders-Thibodeau Inc should be told F-I-R-M-L-Y and clearly that protectionism is escapism, and is therefore not on the political menu. Calling protectionism ‘fair trade’ does not change the nature of the beast.
Labor rights, like environmental rights and human rights are a dangerous fig leaf for protectionist organised labor lobbies. They should be deposited in the dustbin of corrupt ideas.
Rochester Institute of Technology: He [Ron Hira] has participated in countless conferences related to science/technology workforce issues and has many contacts in Washington related to science and technology policy.
Willem Buiter: I am still waiting for a political leader who has the courage to explain to Durbin-Grassley-Herbst-Hira-Matloff-Sanders-Thibodeau led US (Tech) workers who feel they have fared badly as a result of globalisation, and some of whom undoubtedly have suffered as a result of globalisation, that globalisation is not a government policy that can be reversed. Preventing imports that have replaced US domestic production and jobs from entering the country would not restore the status quo ante. Globalisation is way more than free or less unfree trade in goods and services. It may manifest itself to some workers as losing their jobs to imports, that is, to trade. But pushing that cork under water again would simply cause it to pop up again elsewhere.
National Foundation for American Policy: Our clients will not drop us because H/L restrictions make it hard to bring people into the United States,” said an American-born executive for one of the companies frequently barked at by Ron Hira. “We’ll make other geographic arrangements, either nearby, such as in Canada or Mexico, or farther away. We would rather do the work in US but if some Members of Congress insist on driving the work offshore we’ll adjust. But it’s bad for the country.”
Technological advances have made doing work outside of US even easier in recent years. With the Internet it can be as simple to connect to someone in India as the person in the next cubicle, according to technology executives. Communicating in a virtual environment, as seen in social websites like MySpace, has gravitated to the commercial world, they note. With TelePresence, for example, one can hold a meeting with people from around the world with high definition screens. “People can see if someone missed a spot shaving,” said the executive. “I don’t need to go to India to meet with clients.”
Willem Buiter: There is a strange and flawed conceit underlying much of the debate about who has lost out as a result of globalisation. It is that a worker has a property right in a specific job and an entitlement to the highest standard of living this job ever provided him or her with.
Obviously, in a world with pervasive change and uncertainty, this is a nonsense. Nostalgia is a well-documented human emotion, but not a proper foundation for economic policy. Through individual and collective insurance mechanisms, it may be possible (with a high degree of certainty) to guarantee that no-one will fall below a certain material standard of living. Specific jobs can never be guaranteed. Even employment (of any meaningful kind) cannot be guaranteed – reclassifying all the unemployed as civil servants won’t help. Governments can try to ensure that labor markets function as efficiently as possible, and they can try to structure the educational and training facilities funded by the state to optimise the matches between available jobs and willing workers. But that is all they can do.
The Eye (Mar 8, 2010 at 8:05 pm): All the people whose jobs were given away to people who do not belong here, will not assimilate into American culture, and are not welcome in any case. Let them go home, I say … and not a moment too soon. It’s about time …
Then … you shall see a recovery, and not before!
Willem Buiter: No one has a property right in a specific job, or a right never to be worse off than they were in the past. If this is what losers in the globalisation game really want, as I suspect they do, they must be told they cannot have it. Stuff happens. To pretend the state can do more than
1) provide a social safety net (whose height will depend on the joint willingness of its citizens to pay taxes) and
2) design laws, rules and regulations that promote the efficient functioning of markets and
3) provide public funding to promote education, training and other mechanisms and institutions to facilitate efficient job matches,
is to live in cloud cuckoo land. If the morose middle threaten to become the moronic middle, politicians should not follow them but try to educate them. Rerum causas cognoscere.